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Last month, I asked why seeing the world in moral terms hasn't made us kinder or our societies more just. And why religion in the public arena accepts this.

That's when I sought help from the Rev. Richard Rohr, a Franciscan and founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque's South Valley. He regularly traverses the nation to explore spirituality with clergy and laity.

Rohr said he was disappointed in his own religion and others; often they confirm individuals' sense of righteousness, superiority, smugness. Faith, he thought, should transform believers, inspiring humility and questioning.

But we ran out of space.

We pick up today as Rohr muses on changing individuals:

"I don't know how we're going to get out of this, except I think there are two paths of transformation: the path of prayer, where you consciously go inside and let go of your security, and you face your own shadow; and the path of suffering.

"I find people who suffer very often cannot live with these simplistic, either-or scenarios. Life is forced into ambiguity once you suffer. Now, what I mean by suffering is not just physical pain. It's whenever you're not always in control. People who are not always in control have a much better tolerance for ambiguity."

Religion permeates politics, I said - these days, negatively. Sometimes, its message sounds less than humane.

He nodded.

"The job is how to be human. And I think that's why Jesus came, to teach us how to be human, not to found an independent religion."

Unfortunately, Rohr continued, Will Herberg's thesis was accurate: "Whether Protestant, Catholic or Jew, our operative belief system is the American Dream - materialism, success, power and money."

How do you grapple with that?

"I was on the road for my first 15 years, recognizing that I agreed with many people's political conclusions, but I was disappointed with their energy and motivation. They appeared to be very often doing the right thing for the wrong reason. They were still angry people, alienated people, needing to defeat their enemies, to humiliate the opposition - but on the progressive side. I said this is not enlightenment.

"So my answer to your question is that we hope to lead people into real inner journeys of God-knowledge, self-knowledge, so that when they do their action it's not just angry and oppositional. Oppositional energy never proceeds from the soul, from God.

"You don't need to hate things, defeat things when you're standing in the God position. You can receive things. And then from that more humble, spacious place you can critique things. But until you find that more humble, spacious place, your criticism is filled with anger and self-interest."

And that place is?

"Where you can come back and work for social transformation - but now not from a win-lose position but from a win-win position. That's transformed politics."

I departed the Center for Action and Contemplation with CDs of Rohr's talks on "Politics and Spirituality." Complex, fascinating, they're available at orders@cacradicalgrace.org. Skip them if you seek obsession with sin - somebody else's, of course - ratification of killing or justification of power.

In his questions, hypotheses and affirmations about spirituality and social action, Rohr promotes love, not fear. From my outsider perspective, that's encouraging.

Oh, and the moral-frame-of-reference conundrum? At a higher consciousness, Rohr says, "dualistic, either-or, win-lose thinking" goes away.